Well-Intentioned Mishaps: When Tech Goes Wrong

Neil [00:00:02]:

Welcome to that super show, the podcast where we talk all things super from the inside. I'm Neil Benson, CEO of Superwire.

Sarah [00:00:09]:

And I'm Sarah Penn, CEO of Mayflower Consulting. Each week we unpack what's changing in the industry, what funds are wrestling with and how tech and regulation are shaping the landscape.

Neil [00:00:19]:

Sometimes we bring in expert guests, but mostly it's just us having a real conversation about how super is working and what could make it even better.

Sarah [00:00:27]:

Let's get into. Hi Neil, how are you going?

Neil [00:00:33]:

I'm great. Sarah. Welcome back. I can't believe they're paying you that much. You've returned for episode three. Well done.

Sarah [00:00:38]:

I know. Can't even think of a good joke about getting paid lots of money.

Neil [00:00:44]:

Well, speaking about getting paid lots of money, what do you reckon all these double digit returns and all the funds have been hoo hahing about recently? It seems like everybody's had a great year globally. The stock market, well, the MCSI Global index was up about 11%. Lots of funds claiming they had double digit performance last year. What do you make of it all?

Sarah [00:01:07]:

I. First of all, you're supposed to look at super over the long term. So looking at over the one year it does not thrill me any old which way? Second of all, lots of people are not in the default option, which tends to be the thing they're talking about. Third of all, the default options are often called balance but are more like 70, 30 or in some cases even 80, 20 which is not balanced I don't think. What else have I got? Yeah, that'll do. How about you, what do you think?

Neil [00:01:35]:

I don't like it to be honest. I think for the people who have chosen a more conservative investment option to see headlines like that might just give them the scaries and cause them to make an inappropriate decision in the future which goes outside the risk tolerance. The reason why they chose the conservative option in the first place and you're right, it only, you know, a super fund doesn't have a performance. Each of their investment options has a performance.

Sarah [00:02:04]:

Yeah. And so actually even the individual. Because there's reasons why no one actually gets the thing that's written on the.

Neil [00:02:11]:

Yeah, yeah. So in, in my case I have a member directed investment portfolio so I'm in a little bit of a pooled investment option but most of my account is invested in ETFs that I have hand picked and so I'm not going to get the, you know, headline performance returns. I don't expect it. I hope to outperform but that's up to me and the risk I'm willing to take.

Sarah [00:02:32]:

Right.

Neil [00:02:32]:

So, yeah, I can understand the reasons behind it, but what do you think the motivations are for these kind of press releases? Is it just a marketing thing to try and keep up with the Joneses?

Sarah [00:02:42]:

Well, funnily enough, a lot of the time it doesn't even come out from the fund. In particular, it's that the fund aggregators, who I select and all those sort of things where you go and look at all the different funds. It's a way for them to promote their services, actually, because they want people to go and look at other funds because as soon as you go and type into Google who has the best returns or anything like that, you're going to see all those, those sort of firms pop up and they get paid, often they get paid by the fund when a new person signs up to them. So of course they want to have the maximum number of people go to their fund. So it's in a lot of people's best interests to get out there and shout about who's got the best returns, except for the members, which is, you know, sad because last time I checked.

Neil [00:03:31]:

But anyway, agitating for change, I think is dangerous because when people switch, they may or may not remember to switch their insurance, their nominations and everything else, and that puts them in a worse off position. Even if the fund they're going to has slightly better performance than the fund they're exiting, it's not always entirely in their interests.

Sarah [00:03:49]:

That is exactly right. In fact, I've. I was chatting to a friend of mine who's a financial planner. He's had clients who got caught up in the First Guardian debacle. Yeah. Despite his advice. And not only did they do that, but they did it via an SMSF and they lost all their insurance. So they're actually in a really bad place from having no insurance as well as being in First Guardian.

Sarah [00:04:16]:

So, yeah, yeah, I really feel for.

Neil [00:04:19]:

Particularly people who are getting close to retirement and they lose a heap of their investment or all of it in a debacle like that. And yeah, puts them right back on the age pension whenever they thought they were going to retire comfortably in a dignified manner and suddenly it's been rug pulled underneath them.

Sarah [00:04:37]:

Yes, that's right. It doesn't help. It really doesn't help with the whole system either when those sort of things happen. And as someone who works inside the system, it is incredibly frustrating that the regulators are going after very large companies who for the whole, especially on the investment side do things very well and sensibly. I mean, in the last couple of years we've seen Vanguard, Mercer Perpetual all get whacked for various DDO breaches and things. And I did actually have a look at the first guardian T& D. They'd use the template, it looked like they'd use the FSC template, but the information in it was just.

Neil [00:05:16]:

Yeah, yeah, some shenanigans there.

Sarah [00:05:19]:

Yes, it's. Anyway, I think this is all allegedly. I feel like we should say allegedly, not when we're, when we're discussing First Guardian, because I believe it's all going through the courts at the moment, so. Allegedly.

Neil [00:05:28]:

Okay. No, we'll see what the courts have to say in the end. But yeah, it does appear that lots of people have lost lots of money. I think that's a certainty, which is a real shame. Well, on a brighter note, I have a little win to claim. I logged in to my member online portal yesterday for a new fund, a new superannuation fund that I'm investing through and filled in a non lapsing binding death benefit nomination online completely digitally in about 30 seconds flat. No signature required, no forms required. I was very impressed.

Neil [00:06:03]:

I wish all. And this is a major superannuation fund. I wish they all offered that option. Why don't they? Why? Can I share a story about my wife's nomination form?

Sarah [00:06:14]:

Yes, yes, do so.

Neil [00:06:16]:

She is with another fund who still ask you to fill in a PDF form. You can either, you know, fill it in online, but you got to print it out wet signature, get a friend to witness it. You send it in and it's, it's non binding and it's. Sorry, it's binding and non lapsing. So many different combinations to remember.

Sarah [00:06:34]:

Yes there are.

Neil [00:06:35]:

And her, her, her nomination got rejected because she had gladly made me the beneficiary. Woohoo. I'm very happy about that. With a 100% nomination to me. But she had put 100.00 and the nomination got rejected because they don't accept decimal figures. You have to use whole numbers. And so whether it was a computer or whether it was a person at the administration. 100.00 and couldn't round it off to 100.

Neil [00:07:06]:

I'm pretty annoyed on Natasha's behalf. That's ridiculous.

Sarah [00:07:09]:

I'd like to tell you that there's probably a very good reason for it, but I can't come up with one.

Neil [00:07:14]:

Yeah, I'd love to know whether it was ocr, you know, optical character recognition. Scanning these forms and the computer said no. Or whether it was a human who needs a bit of a kick up the bum.

Sarah [00:07:28]:

Yeah, let's, let's go with OCR because that's less embarrassing.

Neil [00:07:32]:

Again, one of the top 10 funds with a big administrator behind them. This just come on.

Sarah [00:07:37]:

Yes, however, I have seen. I have seen things programmed to do some very funny things over the years. In fact, on a very micro level. Many years ago we had an online form at the place I worked which was a super fund and, and we were doing new, new screens and the guys who programmed it programmed their error message to be. If you didn't have the. Didn't put an address in to be Address equals null.

Neil [00:08:12]:

Well, again, when computer speak, that's probably true.

Sarah [00:08:15]:

It is true. With 100% true, the address indeed did equal null. However, your average punter, not so much. So, yes, I got the job of writing all of the error messages, hundreds of them, for this bit of kit. So clearly I should have just kept my mouth shut and put up with address equals null. Probably the key learning that one.

Neil [00:08:37]:

You were telling me about some other major technical snafus in superannuation land recently. What have you been reading up on?

Sarah [00:08:43]:

Oh, yes. Well, I always think I've been at a risk conference this week and one of the things that was discussed or last week, one of the things that was discussed is how you can end up occasionally with a bad outcome through good intentions.

Neil [00:09:00]:

Right.

Sarah [00:09:02]:

And. And I thought. And I'm. I apologize to people at Uni super who probably do not ever want to relive this moment again, but the Uni Super Google Cloud debacle, on reading up about it actually seemed to. Was definitely was not Unisuber's fault. It was caused by someone on the Google Cloud side, it seems. What seems to have happened is that they were having to set up lots of Google Cloud instances and someone in the setup team thought they would do something very helpful and write a little front end and a script to fill in all the, all the fields that you needed on the setup screen and was using an Excel spreadsheet and then I presume some kind of script to copy everything in and hit go and set up the new instance.

Neil [00:09:48]:

I don't think it was an Excel spreadsheet. Don't drag Microsoft into this. It's a Google sheet.

Sarah [00:09:54]:

Maybe it was Google. I should check. It's definitely a spreadsheet of someone's making. Yes, it'd be even funnier if they were using a Microsoft product at Google.

Neil [00:10:03]:

It would be.

Sarah [00:10:04]:

I don't think they are, but they probably wouldn't be. That's very true. Anyway, the field, there was a field in said spreadsheet of unknown lineage that was how long is this agreement going to run for? Because I think their standard was like one year or something. Anyway, the problem was if you left that blank because it was a long term agreement and didn't have an end date as per. Like the Uni super setup, when that was copied into the field in the actual system, it set it up with a fixed term, which I believe was one year. And so one year after turning it on, it was automatically. No one pressed a button. It was automatically.

Sarah [00:10:50]:

That instance was turned off in the back end and that made Uni supers, everything they had sitting on it evaporate.

Neil [00:11:00]:

Yeah. Oh gosh.

Sarah [00:11:01]:

One fell swoop and one second. And I just think when you, when you, if you're doing the PIR on that, like there's. There's not really anyone to yell at. It's not user error in terms of. And it's. Sorry, it's not that someone set out to do something nefarious. In fact, the poor bugger who set up the spreadsheet and the front end was probably celebrated by his teammates who he and they or she and they were then able to. To get instances done much more quickly.

Sarah [00:11:32]:

They were probably patted on the back by management for being so much more efficient. But sadly, because it was skunk works, as people call it, when someone's just done something on the side and not through the proper channels, it then blew them up spectacularly a bit later on. And I think there are. It's very, very easy for this to happen in any large organization. And the thing for me out of it partially is looking at one, checking you don't have any skunk works or more to the point, what ones you have going on in your own organization. Because there's bound to be some and.

Neil [00:12:08]:

Of course find them. Yes, you don't have none.

Sarah [00:12:10]:

Yeah, you don't have none. And now with AI right, you're in serious likelihood of having seriously lots of them. That was terrible English. So there's that part of it, but also just the unintended consequences. And sometimes I think this comes from this idea of minimizing risk to zero, this idea that you can actually get rid of risk when actually you absolutely cannot. And the only thing you can do is swap risks for others. Sometimes you do that because there's risks that are easier to manage. Like we're good at managing this sort of risk.

Sarah [00:12:44]:

So we'll take on more of that because we're good at managing it. But the idea that you can reduce risk to zero and where this tends to play out is in things like the areas that I work in, product disclosure and PDF, where people try and put in as many risk mitigants as they can possibly come up with in this kind of sadly misguided idea that if I just come up with enough checks and balances that that will reduce the overall risk. But like all normal curves, actually you end up heading off the other side and you increase. You can increase the complexity so much that the complexity actually introduces new risks that you're not even aware of. And you can still end up sealing.

Neil [00:13:27]:

Up in a mess and complexity, you can just hide the risks that are lurking there as well.

Sarah [00:13:32]:

Absolutely.

Neil [00:13:32]:

The bigger the haystack, the harder it is to find the needle.

Sarah [00:13:35]:

Yes, that's exactly correct. And if people aren't used to the kind of concepts of risk and what that means. But it's very easy to end up. It's very easy to end up in a mess if you don't understand how risk can be quantified and what that actually. What that actually means.

Neil [00:13:52]:

Tell us about the bowtie theory of risk management that you were learning about at the conference as well. I thought that was fascinating.

Sarah [00:13:57]:

Yes. So I love it when you go to a conference and you learn a few new things. And I also just really discovered that risk and governance is actually one of my favorite topics because I am such a nerd, but I don't care because I love it. But there was this new idea or new to me idea of the bowtie of risk management. So this is the idea that instead of when you think about risks, and certainly the way I've always come at it, you think of every single risk you can think of. You put them in column one and then in columns two and three you put the likelihood of it happening and the level of impact should it happen. And then you come out and submit against. And we've done that lots of times in every project I've ever worked on.

Sarah [00:14:36]:

And I'm sure you have too, Neil, in all the projects you've worked on.

Neil [00:14:40]:

Yeah. If you're really sophisticated, you multiply or you combine the likelihood and the impact to give you some kind of risk factor.

Sarah [00:14:48]:

I know. Then you do a map and you do them in green and red and stuff. It's so cool.

Neil [00:14:53]:

No bow ties involved.

Sarah [00:14:55]:

No bow ties involved. So the bow ties is the other idea. So if you imagine the bow tie shape at the, at the point in the middle of the bow tie, that's where you actually think about that hazard or the event that might happen. So if I'm talking PDS's cause, that's what I do know a lot about. The thing that you're really trying to avoid in a PDF is something in a PDF that is wrong or something missing in the PDFs. But even if we just use the error, so something is in the PDF that is wrong, the fee is wrong. You've incorrectly described how something happens. You've glossed over it, or you haven't described it properly or whatever.

Sarah [00:15:35]:

An error, an error in the text of a PDF is actually fundamentally the thing you're trying to avoid.

Neil [00:15:41]:

Yes.

Sarah [00:15:42]:

So if we start from the far left, the wide end of the left side of the bow tie, we talk about the potential causes, what are all the ways that you can end up with something going wrong in a PDF? And if we go out to the far right hand side of the bow tie, you have all the potential outcomes of something going wrong in a PDF. So if we think about causes, it can be things like someone's reviewing it late at night. Someone doesn't have the right set of skills to, to review what they're reading. No one's checked it against the laws, no one's checked it against how the, that part of the product actually works. There's a bunch of different causes, and then you can think about each of those different causes and you can put in controls to reduce and prevent any of those things happening. So that's as you got your causes at the far left and then your controls, and then you get down to your event and then going out the other side, at the far right, you have all your potential outcomes, which is all the things that would potentially eventuate if you had something wrong in your pds. Of course, your highest, your nastiest thing on that is you get fined or sued by ASIC for some enormous amount of money. Dire.

Sarah [00:16:49]:

But there's lots of other things as well. And then you can think about if you do have something that's wrong in your pds, how do you mitigate or recover from that thing happening? So, yes, that's the bowtie of risk. We'll put a picture in the show notes as well, because maybe this is a little bit hard to understand, but it just helped me think about risk management in a much more, I don't know, organized, easy to understand way than before.

Neil [00:17:16]:

So let me try and apply that to one of my domains then Complaints management. Right. One of the things we like to do is to meet the regulatory compliance guideline for responding to a complaint. 45 days is the typical. Depends on the complaint type and the product type, but 45 days generally for superannuation, we don't want to miss that. If we do, we'll probably get in trouble. So that would be the event, is that right? And the bow tie in the middle would be a late response.

Sarah [00:17:43]:

Late response. 45 plus one.

Neil [00:17:45]:

Yes. What are the causes of a late response? So it could be we didn't measure it or we can't measure it. We didn't have the respondents or the complainant's address or contact information. We forgot to start the timer. We took more than a normal amount of time to review the complaint and draft the response. Or it had to get approved. The response had to get approved by somebody who wasn't available. Those are the kind of causes that that event might happen.

Neil [00:18:14]:

And then we could put in a bunch of mitigating controls around that to make sure that it does. We might put in a timer. After 30 days, a warning bell goes off and says, right, you've got 15 days left. And. Yeah, okay, yeah.

Sarah [00:18:26]:

And then on the other side, if you do do happen to go past the 45 days, you can then think about what are all the potential outcomes of that and how can you deal with each of those? So maybe, yeah, if it does get to 45 plus 1, then what? Then what happens? How quickly do you escalate it? And I'm sure there's lots of other things that I don't know about.

Neil [00:18:51]:

Yeah, well, you can just write to the complainant and say, look, we're still investigating or analyzing your complaint. It's day 44, we'll be back in touch within two weeks. So you give yourself a little extension. But, yeah, there you go. You need to keep in touch with the complainant and make sure that they're getting some kind of response from you.

Sarah [00:19:08]:

But fundamentally, yeah, you want to do everything you can on the left hand side to not get to the point where you're at 45 plus one and you haven't responded.

Neil [00:19:16]:

Yeah, yeah, very good.

Sarah [00:19:18]:

Yeah.

Neil [00:19:18]:

So it was a good conference.

Sarah [00:19:19]:

Yes, it was. It was really good, actually. There were lots of really interesting sessions. It was another. It was an IBRC conference. I haven't been to the Risk and Governance one before. I chaired a panel on governance and all the different aspects of that, which was fascinating. And governance I know a bit about because I've been on various nfp boards and things before.

Sarah [00:19:43]:

But in terms of what the regulators are expecting going forward and how that comes together, it's not really an area that I know much about. So I found that. Yeah, I found that fascinating. There was another great session on cyber and all the things that happen with cyber. In fact, the. It wasn't mentioned in that particular session. But the bow tie is a really good, good way to think about cyber, cybercrime and all the. The different events that you might happen.

Sarah [00:20:10]:

Because actually, people, when you think about cyber, you might say, well, the risk is cyber crime. But actually that's a whole bunch of different things. Right. There's, you know, denial of service attack versus a, A credential stuffing attack versus a. I don't know, there's a. There's a million other sorts ransom, all kinds of different. Different issues, and each one of those is an event and you need to think about each one of them separately. Yeah, so, yes, it was great.

Sarah [00:20:40]:

And speaking of risk management and. And we're just talking about complaints. I understand you've got a new fancy complaint tool to. To launch. Yeah, hopefully by the time this goes live.

Neil [00:20:52]:

It'll be live. By the time this podcast comes out, we're just putting the finishing touches to it. It's called the Complaints Resolution Scorecard. The idea is that a somebody working in complaints can answer. I think there's about 12 questions about their complaints function. And we'll give them an assessment in three different categories about how well they score. And once we start collecting enough data, then we'll give them a benchmark as well. How do they compare against others who've taken the report as well? So it'll all be anonymous, but we'll try and give you an indication of the size of the other firms that have responded and which part of the financial services sector they're in, and hopefully some helpful tips about how you can improve what kind of processes and systems and procedures might lift your score and improve your complaint handling.

Neil [00:21:37]:

And so that's about to go live and yeah, we'll put a link to that in the show notes and people can give it a whirl and let me know what they think.

Sarah [00:21:43]:

Lovely. So if someone's listening to this podcast, and I think that sounds great, but who in my organization is the right person to send it to?

Neil [00:21:52]:

So in a lot of particular super funds, there'll be somebody who's the head of complaints. Quite often they report into the operations team, and that person manages all the complaints people and the processes and systems that go with it. In other financial services firms, can you think of advisors and investment managers? There'll be different roles for that. It might be somebody in operations or member services or consumer services customer service who handle complaints. So the roles will be different. But if your job is internal dispute resolution, complaints, disputes, resolutions, whatever they might call it in your firm then or your fund, then the scorecard's for you.

Sarah [00:22:29]:

And what. How'd you come up with the idea for doing a scorecard? Did someone ask?

Neil [00:22:34]:

I was trying to find a way to offer some value from the experts that we've built up in complaint handling. And I recently took a scorecard for positioning. So Superwire is going to go through an exercise to come up with better language to describe ourselves. So I went on this website, this positioning expert, and he used. Used this, the same quiz app, and came up with a positioning quiz. And our result at the end of it was ne spelled N E H. That's. That's our current positioning.

Neil [00:23:10]:

Our language is pretty dull and boring, so. And he gave me lots of hints and tips about how to improve our positioning. And I read his audiobook and I booked a session with him. And now we've engaged him to go through some workshops to improve how we communicate what we do and the value that we add. I thought, well, that'd be really useful because we're trying to obviously create more value for complaints people. And this assessment might give them some great ideas about how they can improve in a way that's personalized and meaningful for them specifically. So that's the idea behind that.

Sarah [00:23:42]:

That sounds very cool. I like it.

Neil [00:23:43]:

What could you do with a quiz for your crowd?

Sarah [00:23:46]:

Oh, we have. We've thought about doing one before about sort of quality of pds, your PDS management, sort of, I guess, your governance around PDSS and how well you. You've got the whole thing. Got the whole thing organized. I'll be interested to hear. You'll have to tell me how the complaints one goes and maybe we'll. We'll get on, get on board with this scorecard train, too.

Neil [00:24:12]:

Well, I was a little skeptical of these kind of quizzes. You know those social media quizzes you used to get. Which Dog am I? Hang on. Good. I am the. I'm a Labrador of complaints management. But we wanted something that was much more practical and focused than that. So that's what we've done.

Neil [00:24:26]:

And it can be used really well in a business setting. I've proven that to myself by taking this positioning quiz. So, yeah, happy to unleash that in the world and hear the feedback.

Sarah [00:24:36]:

Yeah, excellent. I think it's always very helpful. I think when you do something like that and it gives you some instant feedback and instantly go, oh, yeah, that's a good idea. I definitely need to think about that some more. If that's what you get out of it, then, yeah, excellent. Speaking of feedback, my recommendation for the week is another podcast called Coaching Real Leaders with Muriel Wilkinson.

Neil [00:25:00]:

Is this another HBR podcast series?

Sarah [00:25:01]:

It is another.

Neil [00:25:02]:

I love your HR podcast. Awesome.

Sarah [00:25:05]:

I do.

Neil [00:25:06]:

We're going to have to get on their podcast network, I think.

Sarah [00:25:09]:

Yeah, yeah. Coaching Real Leaders. So you see, each one is, you get someone on the call who's got some issue at work, and they're senior people. It could be from anywhere in the world, which is kind of cool. And they go through their issue. But the interesting thing is one, often from about three minutes in, it's obvious what the problem is. But as the saying goes, it's very hard to read the label from inside the jam jar.

Neil [00:25:41]:

Yes.

Sarah [00:25:42]:

Meaning when you're inside the problem or the company, it's hard to understand A, what your positioning should be, going back to your earlier point, or B, actually what your problem is. But she's. Muriel is just amazing, the way she. She asks questions, and that's never something I've been great at. So I really enjoy listening to her asking questions, and it makes me think about what I could do differently in terms of how I work with my team.

Neil [00:26:09]:

I think that ability to ask insightful questions and perform that diagnosis is critical for anybody trying to work with another organization and get to the crux of the problem pretty quickly and make sure you've got the right diagnosis, you've explored all the different problems and got the right diagnosis before you start trying to implement a solution. So, yeah, it's great to hear that. Even just in a podcast.

Sarah [00:26:32]:

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So that's. I find that, yes. Really interesting. You know, I don't know. There's some podcasts I listen to when I'm trying to get to sleep because they're just soothing and you can go to sleep.

Sarah [00:26:42]:

But there's some that I always make sure I listen to. No, not this one. I only listen to this when I'm, you know, wide awake and listening carefully to take notes. And another AI tool that we use, which we'll talk about some other time, but it tells you how many questions you asked in a meeting. Ooh, I know. I'm averaging 11 questions. That's about 11 more than I ever used to manage.

Neil [00:27:05]:

Will you all just shut up and listen to me. Is that a question? That's how I normally start mine.

Sarah [00:27:11]:

Was that that Richie Benno quote from 12th man from a very long time ago. Let's all work as a team and do it my way.

Neil [00:27:21]:

Well, I've. I haven't played with it yet, sir, but I want to let you know about a new AI tool that I'm gonna try out as soon as we wrap up this recording. It's called Relay App and it's by the founder is a guy come out of Google. Actually I think he's worked on Gmail, maybe not Google Sheets, maybe I don't know his lineage there, but it's only really exciting. I big user of Microsoft Copilot and ChatGPT, but neither of those can really take any action. What I want is a really simple scenario. I get an email from Qantas with my itinerary. It's in.

Neil [00:27:56]:

For some reason, it's in the attached PDF. They can't just put it in the body of the email. And so I want an AI agent or something, somebody to read the contents of that PDF and go, neil, I'm going to create a calendar event for your flight out and your flight back, please. At the right time, from the right airport, with the right tracking code, you know, the flight identifier on it, and just put it on my calendar, please. I asked Microsoft Copilot to help me do that and Copilot said, yes, I can show you how to read a PDF and create calendar events. I'm like, no, can't you do it for me? Oh, no, no. I don't have that capability yet. I cannot create events in Outlook, said.

Sarah [00:28:37]:

Microsoft Copilot, even though I'm in Outlook because I'm inside Microsoft, so maybe someday.

Neil [00:28:44]:

Soon Copilot will get there and be able to take action. ChatGPT can't do it either, but I'm really excited to try this new Relay app because it sounds a bit. I use Zapier quite a bit for doing when this event happens, when this trigger occurs, then take these following actions and all these different systems and I can wire things together really nicely. But it's not really AI yet. But this can then use an AI. You use whatever LLM you want. You can use Claude or Gemini or Microsoft or ChatGPT to read that PDF and do the analysis for you to then come up with the flight times and flight numbers and everything else. So yeah, I'll let you know how that goes next episode.

Sarah [00:29:23]:

That sounds about. Well, you won't have to tell me in between if it's good. I think that's us for this fortnight. Looking forward to doing this again and talking to everyone soon.

Neil [00:29:33]:

Speak to you soon. Thanks Sarah. Bye for now.

Sarah [00:29:35]:

Thank you Be Neil. Bye.

Neil [00:29:36]:

Thanks for listening to that super show. We hope today's episode give you something useful to take back to your team.

Sarah [00:29:42]:

If you're thinking we should talk, we'd love to chat. You can book a meeting with either of us via the link in the show notes.

Neil [00:29:47]:

And don't forget to follow the show, share it with a colleague, and drop us a line if there's a topic you want us to tackle.

Sarah [00:29:52]:

Catch you next time on that super show.